E-85 in a supra?

[Toyota h8r]

I was wondering what modifications are needed to run e-85 known as corn gas? If it can be done, how much would the converison cost roughly? The reason i`m asking is; a. that it burns cooler and b. the cost per gallon is about a dollar less! Just some food for thought. Thanx, Shelby

 

[oneandgone]

PM Figgie. He's converted his car to run E-85.

 

[supra90mkiii]

yea it does have a higher octane rating... burns cooler yes.

E-85 is oxygenated fuel. so after the fuel is sprayed into the cumbustion chamber and ignited, the gases flow past the oxygen sensor. the o2 sensor tells the ecm that you are running lean, so it uses more fuel to do the same amount of work.

and the way i see it, if a lot of people start using e-85, the prices will go up, it's simple supply v demand.


so the only benefit i see in using it for a daily driver is... to decrease our dependence on the crude oil market.

 

[lanternman]

yea it does have a higher octane rating... burns cooler yes.

E-85 is oxygenated fuel. so after the fuel is sprayed into the cumbustion chamber and ignited, the gases flow past the oxygen sensor. the o2 sensor tells the ecm that you are running lean, so it uses more fuel to do the same amount of work.

and the way i see it, if a lot of people start using e-85, the prices will go up, it's simple supply v demand.


so the only benefit i see in using it for a daily driver is... to decrease our dependence on the crude oil market.

A few things, yes it is higher octane and burns cooler, both good things for horsepower. The thing about it running rich is true because stoich on ethanol is different than that for gasoline. Your fuel economy will take a hit, but can be minimized with proper tuning. I guess the bare minimum would be some sort of fuel controller like an SAFC and a wideband. Another issue is that alcohol can wash the cylinders and cause accelerated wear. It can also create corrosive organic compounds in the combustion chamber that can make their way into the oil.

The actual effect of this has not been thoroughly tested (as far as I know) to figure out the severity of these issues, and in most cases OEM FFV engines are basically the same as non FFV's with different fuel tuning (no internal changes).

As far as price is concerned, yes the cost will increase with demand if it ever becomes popular, but I still see the benefits for him, being that it's a dollar cheaper, and he has improved "pump gas" power potential. The only problem is you have to adjust your fuel settings if you are ever stuck getting normal gas or you just never get to use its full potential leaving all settings the same. I thought about trying it myself, but there is only one station in my area that carries it, so its not practical.

cliffs : sure there are issues, but it has the potential for reducing cost and improving power potential on pump gas in this particular case.

Edit: Also forgot about the fueling system modifications, like alcohol compatible lines, pump etc. if needed.

 

[JustAnotherVictim]

The price won't necessarily go up just because of demand, it depends on a number of factors.
I have wanted to look into being able to use both types of fuel in my car could be usefull someday.

 

[Nick M]

The price won't necessarily go up just because of demand, it depends on a number of factors.

And demand is the biggest variable in figuring supply.

so the only benefit i see in using it

is the farmers in Ohio where you live and other places that think we should buy their product.

The alcohol needs more heat and pressure to light. If you can use regular gasoline it is probably better for you to not switch.

 

[fatality]

and the way i see it, if a lot of people start using e-85, the prices will go up, it's simple supply v demand.

No the price will not go up. It is federally subsidized so the farmers are going to make the same. all it will do is decrease the amount of money the US has to pay the farmers for doing nothing.

 

[supra87t/t4]

Ethanol may be subsidized right now, but someday when gas is 2 or 3 times more expensive than it is now, unsibsidized ethanol will be much cheaper and you will be glad that the groundwork was laid now.

You need about 30% more E85 than regular gas to get the mixture the same, and you will see an equal decrease in milage, therefore E85 has to be 30% cheaper than gas to be a cost effective option. That doesn't account for any money you spend on upgrading your fuel system to add flow capacity or make it more corrosion resistant (ethonal is more corrosive than gas, but less than methanol, which is very nasty). Then you have to figure in the convenience factor, how many E85 stations do you have in your area, last I heard minnesota had more than the rest of the country combined and I have considered running E85, but at the current prices it doesn't make sense.

Glen

 

[lanternman]

Ethanol may be subsidized right now, but someday when gas is 2 or 3 times more expensive than it is now, unsibsidized ethanol will be much cheaper and you will be glad that the groundwork was laid now.

You need about 30% more E85 than regular gas to get the mixture the same, and you will see an equal decrease in milage, therefore E85 has to be 30% cheaper than gas to be a cost effective option. That doesn't account for any money you spend on upgrading your fuel system to add flow capacity or make it more corrosion resistant (ethonal is more corrosive than gas, but less than methanol, which is very nasty). Then you have to figure in the convenience factor, how many E85 stations do you have in your area, last I heard minnesota had more than the rest of the country combined and I have considered running E85, but at the current prices it doesn't make sense.

Glen

I'm curious where you got the 30% from? I've heard about 10-15% drop in most FFV's. If it is indeed closer to 30% that is a blow, but I agree with your thoughts that there is no sense in switching if you don't have enough supply around you, what happens if you have to go on a road trip or something? I still think the best scenario is to have multiple fuel maps and be able to run E85 as a cheap race gas, and then run regular gas the rest of the time.

 

[figgie]

Ethanol may be subsidized right now, but someday when gas is 2 or 3 times more expensive than it is now, unsibsidized ethanol will be much cheaper and you will be glad that the groundwork was laid now.

You need about 30% more E85 than regular gas to get the mixture the same, and you will see an equal decrease in milage, therefore E85 has to be 30% cheaper than gas to be a cost effective option. That doesn't account for any money you spend on upgrading your fuel system to add flow capacity or make it more corrosion resistant (ethonal is more corrosive than gas, but less than methanol, which is very nasty). Then you have to figure in the convenience factor, how many E85 stations do you have in your area, last I heard minnesota had more than the rest of the country combined and I have considered running E85, but at the current prices it doesn't make sense.

Glen

30%?

try double the gasoline flow And for High HP apps, forget the walbro or duoble walbro you need to go with big guns. no if's and's or doubts about it

 

[Adjuster]

Interesting discussion.

Adding alcohol to your Petrol has always been a way to control detonation and futher cool the combustion chamber.

Just adding it straight to your fuel has been done for years in many cities too. (Figure this is in the 10% or less range, mostly to oxygenate the fuel, and to help displace water trapped in fuels/tanks etc.) Your "Heet" type products are just pure alcohol.

So, E85, being 85% alcohol is big time over kill on the additive portion of the deal, really petrol becomes the "additive" and your basicly running an alcohol fueled vehicle with a splash of 15% petrol.

As Figgie notes, you generally need about 2x the fuel when running a pure alky based engine compared to petrol. (Gas.)

There is less chemical energy pound for pound, so you get less miles per gallon. (This is why diesel engines get better mileage, they have more energy per unit than either gas or alky.)

The ultimate engine might be a turbine that can adapt to whatever fuel you feed it. (Like the Abrams tank turbine engine for example.) Drop by McDonalds for some used fry oil, then hit the Diesel pumps later for a fill up, and then the E85 on the way home. The engine has a sensor that allows any combustable fuel pretty much to be run, and in various concentrations of it in the tank. (The engine figures out what's being run, and adapts accordingly from what I've been told.) Pretty cool setup. Too bad it's attached to a huge tank.... LOL (And we thought the Supra was heavy...)

 

[89MkIII]

E85 is a great idea, but it will not catch on. It burns hotter - which is a negative. Wears on plastic components. It is not as efficient - your mpg will drop. The manner in which it is manufactured requires energy - as gas prices increase, so will the cost of E85.
You are going to hear more and more hype about E85 because this is all the domestic manufacturers have going for them. They have completely dropped the ball on hybrid technology and now they are scrambling for anything that makes them appear to be enviromentally friendly or fuel efficient. There is a reason why Toyota and Honda avoid E85, it is a false prophet in sense. Hybrids and fuel cells are the wave of the future. Electric motors provide instant torque making hybrids a great canidate for sport cars. Couple that w/ the ingenuity of the imports..... in fact Honda has recently discovered a way to increase combustion strength by nearly 33% through a new injection process.

 

[Nick M]

And demand is the biggest variable in figuring supply.

Excuse me, it is price not supply. :3d_frown:

 

[tubbie]

I guess those GM "green" commercials are working....... :rofl: :rofl:

 

[Toyota h8r]

The reason i asked if e-85 would work in a supra, is that the local news had a special on alternate fuels. Having a station closer to me and being around $2 a gallon, so u can see my curious questions?

 

[figgie]

E85 is a great idea, but it will not catch on. It burns hotter - which is a negative. Wears on plastic components. It is not as efficient - your mpg will drop. The manner in which it is manufactured requires energy - as gas prices increase, so will the cost of E85.
You are going to hear more and more hype about E85 because this is all the domestic manufacturers have going for them. They have completely dropped the ball on hybrid technology and now they are scrambling for anything that makes them appear to be enviromentally friendly or fuel efficient. There is a reason why Toyota and Honda avoid E85, it is a false prophet in sense. Hybrids and fuel cells are the wave of the future. Electric motors provide instant torque making hybrids a great canidate for sport cars. Couple that w/ the ingenuity of the imports..... in fact Honda has recently discovered a way to increase combustion strength by nearly 33% through a new injection process.

what in the name of??

Fact:

Ethanol burns COOLER than gasoline. Much like Methanol burns COOLER than gasoline. In the burn process alcohols are more EFFICENT in converting their potential energy into HEAT.

The BTU content of Ethanol is less than Gasoline but I can get within 5% of gasoline MPG as of right now. With more power to boot. Why? Higher octane meaning more timing advance

BTW you are aware that the US goverments subsidized farm growers to NOT grow as much corn as they possibly could right? It is called artificially capping the corn futures. Only way to keep price up.

 

[figgie]

The reason i asked if e-85 would work in a supra, is that the local news had a special on alternate fuels. Having a station closer to me and being around $2 a gallon, so u can see my curious questions?

I did the conversion

it is not cheap but in my opinion it is worth it

More power at the pump when running e-85. PERIOD.