Concerning amount of debris in cooling system

[suprasick]

Going back six months ago I noticed the temp gauge raising above the normal 1/3 mark only on the highway. After running a compression, leak down, and block test, it turns out my radiator was clogged.
So I upgraded to a two row aluminum radiator. But before I installed the new radiator, I performed a Oxalic acid flush per JJ's advice here: http://www.supramania.com/forums/sh...eutralized..&p=1559199&viewfull=1#post1559199

Then flushed with distilled water, blew out with air, and filled the new radiator with 50/50 concentration of G05 coolant and distilled water.

Fast forward to now and I am having the same problem but only noticeable in warm weather (70 degress or higher running on highway, needle rises)

So I took a peek inside the radiator and sure enough the same debris as last time floating around in the radiator.

I removed the radiator and back flushed it and here is what came out. I used a makeshift "sluice box" with a tarp to gather the debris here's a pic:



Here's another pic for a size reference:



I then back flushed the engine by taking the thermostat out and running hose water through the top radiator hose and out the bottom into a bucket until I didn't see anymore debris in the bottom of the bucket.

...flushed with distilled water, blew out with air, then filled with 50/50 G05 and distilled water.

Before I put the top radiator hose back on, I took some womens pantyhose, from my collection, and put it on the radiator inlet(top hose) and slid the hose over to act as a easy to clean filter.

After driving 15 min I noticed the gauge creeping to the halfway mark. I turned the heater on to maintain normal temp on the way home.

I took off the hose to see the filter and heres what I saw:
The 22 round is for size reference, it was all I had around...


It feels like the debris is never ending.

My questions:

Is there a better way to filter out the crap? (I feel I am pushing my luck with the HG everytime the engine raises past the normal temp)

Is this common with the 7M?

What is the debris? (the only thing I can think of is iron from the block which is very disturbing)

Or just any advice in general that may be helpful



Thanks for the help......oh and I don't really have a womens pantyhose collection:biglaugh:

 

[jetjock]

Not to be hard on you but all that previous work only to find a bum radiator? The BHG force is strong with this crowd.

Without close examination I can't tell what that stuff is. Doesn't matter though, you need to get it all out. Back-flush and filter again until it's gone. After that permanently install a side-stream (bypass) coolant filter on the heater core or ISCV hoses. That should have been done after the acid flush.

While I used an actual coolant filter any cheap filter mount and oil filter will work fine. Change it every two years. G05 is fine if you don't want to pay for the latest diluted Zerex Asian stuff. I continue to use G05 in everything I own. Course, there's always the Toyota juice.

As I've pointed out before the use of oxalic acid is for heavy duty cleaning of badly corroded systems and not for routine maintenance. I'm thinking you didn't get the crap all out (nooks and crannies, heater core, etc) and clogging the pantyhose sent the temp back up. Could also be your rad is again pooched. Easy enough to check: after engine shutdown feel for cool spots or use an IR gun. Don't use the 22...

 

[Dan_Gyoba]

Apply a vacuum pump to the heater valve when you flush, too, otherwise whatever's in the coolant lines to the heater core won't get flushed, because the valve will be closed.

As to where the crap is coming from...

A test. Is it iron? Simple. Use a magnet. If that picks it up, it's ferrous, otherwise, it isn't.

If it is ferrous, what iron is in contact with the cooling system? Well, the cylinder block, water pump, and the turbocharger. Some radiator hoses might have a spring in them as well.

If nonferrous but metallic, then there's the cylinder head, radiator, heater core, various valves and sth.

If it's non metallic... The only opening that SHOULD be in the system is the coolant overflow tank. (You probably want to clean that anyway) That seems like an awful lot of grit to get into the system that way though, unless some kid decided that was a place to put a bunch of sand from the playground.

With that much grit in the coolant flow, I'd start planning to replace your water pump real soon, too.

 

[suprasick]

Not to be hard on you but all that previous work only to find a bum radiator? The BHG force is strong with this crowd.

Without close examination I can't tell what that stuff is. Doesn't matter though, you need to get it all out. Back-flush and filter again until it's gone. After that permanently install a side-stream (bypass) coolant filter on the heater core or ISCV hoses. That should have been done after the acid flush.

While I used an actual coolant filter any cheap filter mount and oil filter will work fine. Change it every two years. G05 is fine if you don't want to pay for the latest diluted Zerex Asian stuff. I continue to use G05 in everything I own. Course, there's always the Toyota juice.

As I've pointed out before the use of oxalic acid is for heavy duty cleaning of badly corroded systems and not for routine maintenance. I'm thinking you didn't get the crap all out (nooks and crannies, heater core, etc) and clogging the pantyhose sent the temp back up. Could also be your rad is again pooched. Easy enough to check: after engine shutdown feel for cool spots or use an IR gun. Don't use the 22...

I've had the car since 2004. But its only been the last two where I did the repair work myself instead of paying "mechanics". When the car was NA, it suffered 4 BHG and each time being repaired by these mechanics. So within the last two years I really took it upon myself to do my best to learn and understand the 7M to do the repairs myself. The engine being a GTE now, has had 2. One the previous owner, and the second was my own mistake. Both being a combustion chamber to coolant jacket failure. So you can see why BHG was pulsing through my brain...
It was actually the block test in which I accidentally sucked some coolant up that I realized I'm looking in the wrong area.

In taking your advice I drained and back flushed the system again and installed a coolant bypass filter yesterday.
Here are the results (after seeing a picture of your engine bay, please excuse my dirty engine bay)


After checking for leaks, I checked the radiator for cool spots with an IR gun which there were none. I am assuming my flushing was sufficient enough.

I do have a question with the ignitor location though. I currently have it attached with one leg by the proportioning valve. I have also done your grounding mod to the ignitor. Is this location, in your opinion, acceptable for a permanent solution?




When I was forking over thousands to these "mechanics" to fix my car, there has been many times where I thought the .22 would be useful....

Apply a vacuum pump to the heater valve when you flush, too, otherwise whatever's in the coolant lines to the heater core won't get flushed, because the valve will be closed.

As to where the crap is coming from...

A test. Is it iron? Simple. Use a magnet. If that picks it up, it's ferrous, otherwise, it isn't.

If it is ferrous, what iron is in contact with the cooling system? Well, the cylinder block, water pump, and the turbocharger. Some radiator hoses might have a spring in them as well.

If nonferrous but metallic, then there's the cylinder head, radiator, heater core, various valves and sth.

If it's non metallic... The only opening that SHOULD be in the system is the coolant overflow tank. (You probably want to clean that anyway) That seems like an awful lot of grit to get into the system that way though, unless some kid decided that was a place to put a bunch of sand from the playground.

With that much grit in the coolant flow, I'd start planning to replace your water pump real soon, too.

The heater valve is a good recommendation as I don't remember flushing it when I did the initial acid flush. So I zip tied the valve open during the flushing this time.

The magnet test concluded to be all ferrous.

I am too amazed the water pump is still working. Although I have not heard of a 7M water pump dieing I will be replacing that for good measure.

Thank you for your insight.

 

[jetjock]

Nice job. The bottom line is whether the engine continues to run hot though. Good the rad seems OK because once one is clogged it's near impossible to chemically clean because the stuff can't down into the tubes. Why in the old days tanks got removed and tubes rodded.

I actually like what you've done more than my setup due to the hoses not running behind the alternator and being on top of the engine. My igniter was turned 90 degrees though because it was mounted using the forward prop valve bolt. Yours seem to be mounted lower. Not that it matters. It'll be fine there.

Since it's nearby you may want to extend the igniter ground to the manifold wires. That'll ground the ECU directly to battery negative. Leave a bit of slack for the engine to move.

That filter (the Napa 4071/Wix 24071 are shorter versions btw), being the first one, will pick up stuff quickly while subsequent filters will last longer. Don't go more than 4 years because the media tends to get mushy. And being coolant filters they don't have a bypass valve...cold to the touch means plugged. That said I have never had one beyond the first reach capacity.

Anyway, good luck with that. I think once the system cleans up you'll like how nice it stays. Course, pristine looking coolant doesn't last forever. It's all about the corrosion package. If you don't want to do PH, voltmeter checks, block drains, etc just do a simple radiator dump and refill with fresh mix each year.

 

[Orion ZyGarian]

This is terrific info. Thanks for the contributions you two

 

[jetjock]

You're welcome. I admit to being a little filter crazy. Where it really matters is on PS and auto trans, along with cooling of those. Due to the elastomers and close part tolerances hydraulic systems are unforgiving of fluid contamination.

 

[Orion ZyGarian]

Indeed. I wouldntve even considered a power steering filter really, but those systems definitely still get quite nasty. Cooling systems for sure as well.

 

[suprasick]

If you don't mind me asking, which PS Filter did you go with?

 

[jetjock]

I used a 3/8" Magnefine. Fits nicely under the AFM.

 

[3p141592654]

Here's my PS setup

http://www.supramania.com/forums/sh...ering-issues&p=1836082&viewfull=1#post1836082

 

[suprasick]

Thanks for the thread link 3p. I will be installing a ps filter within the week.

And Jetjock, I would like to thank you for your help. It seems as though my car is becoming to have more and more of your mods and ideas like the industrial 3 way pneumatic valve for the heater control, ignitor mod, and now the coolant filter system. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is to my understanding that you don't even own a mk3 anymore. Yet, you still share your insights and help members. That is pretty cool of you. If you're ever in Washington State, I'd be more than happy to buy you a beer or two!:beer:

 

[jetjock]

Funny, I was recently accused of having NEVER posted anything useful. Lol, that may have been a reference to my award winning personality though. Anyway, you're welcome and thanks for the invite. Guys like you are one reason I stick around despite the frequent bouts of head shaking. That said I'm in the winter of my association with this forum. Eight years is a long time.

 

[supraguy@aol]

You still have the Delorean, seen in the backround of your coolant filter pics?

 

[jetjock]

I do. Rarely drive it these days though due to a dislike of the attention it brings. Don't like dealing with the idiots. Besides, I'm wanted in 11 states...

 

[IJ.]

Funny, I was recently accused of having NEVER posted anything useful. Lol, that may have been a reference to my award winning personality though. Anyway, you're welcome and thanks for the invite. Guys like you are one reason I stick around despite the frequent bouts of head shaking. That said I'm in the winter of my association with this forum. Eight years is a long time.

I do. Rarely drive it these days though due to a dislike of the attention it brings. Don't like dealing with the idiots. Besides, I'm wanted in 11 states...

And 3 Countries
(see above)

 

[Faye]

Ok, little bit of thread revival here, but after meeting the OP and hearing his horror story, I decided that I, too needed a coolant filter. I followed these same steps to a T, oxalic acid flush, followed by many many flushes with distilled water, then installed my coolant filter and filled with G05. (even though I work at Toyota and have access to all the free Toyota juice I want..... figure that one)

I bought my car without cruise control, so that empty space was perfect for my filter location! Here is my setup:

Thankfully, I did not find nearly the amount of debris in my system as suprasick, but after having years of running green stuff, I had no idea what I was going to find.

Thanks everyone for the tip!!!